Can you share your path and your passion for the work you do and how it brought you to sports?
Long story short, I grew up a huge Philly sports fan. And then, when I was in school, I was pretty decent at math, but, wasn't totally sure what I wanted to apply that to, or how that would fit into my career. But then, when I went to school for undergrad, and I ended up taking a lot of stats classes, I found those to be really interesting. And then every time I had a project that I was able to do for a class, and they're like, pick whatever data set you want, it was sports all the way. So I was able to do a ton of interesting projects and research, especially using hockey data. And the whole time, I don't think I ever thought that it would really become a job, because how crazy and cool would that be? But I was fortunate enough to share my research, connect with some very cool people, including my now boss, Alex Mandrycky, and show 'here's what you can do with hockey data. Here are some interesting insights about the draft, about finding players,' things like that, and that led me to be here today.
I think, for people who aren't in your shoes or in your role, people who are outside of a hockey operations team, the idea of data and hockey is this nebulous concept, right? And we see spreadsheets, or we see NHL edge, or we hear 'tracking data.' What can you share with us about the evolution of not just what kind of data you're able to work with, but also the application, and who else you're working with within the hockey team?
Yeah, so one of the best parts about working in R&D here is that we get to touch every part of hockey operations, whether that's pro and amateur scouting, to coaching, strength and conditioning, player development, you name it. And we've learned so much from everyone around here, and particularly with regards to applying data and learning from it. A lot of what we've done, especially with newer data sources like tracking data, is try to get to the why, right? So it's one thing to come up with a player metric and be like, so and so is the best or worst player in the league, but it's another thing to go into a week of scouting meetings and say, 'okay, we really like this player from a numbers perspective,' and the scouts might say, 'oh, we're not as high on him.' What is actually the discrepancy there, rather than just pointing to one number. So I think that's where tracking data and new data sources help us get more context, get more understanding about stylistic trends of players, and really get to that why when there are those types of interesting discrepancies.
To that point, let's debunk another myth. I think the debate is almost dead regarding the eye test versus numbers. But how is your team truly bringing those two together and applying them for finding the best possible answer? What's the reality of using both?
Yeah, the reality is that I'm not going to go out there and scout games every night, so someone has to, and we're always in contact with our scouts, and they provide such valuable insight, I'll say, to give a more specific answer, one way in which they're incredibly valuable is there might be new players, like prospects who just entered the league, for example, whether that's the NHL or AHL, where we might have a more limited sample of data from which to draw conclusions, but maybe our scouts have seen some of their first games and tell us more about how they're fitting in, and what they could do, better or worse, or anything. So just having that additional perspective, especially on younger players, or players that we have less of a track record of data, I think is one area where scouting is especially helpful to us.
We're debunking all kinds of myths today. There used to be a joke of saying ‘watch the game, nerd,’ and even people like me used to say, what we really need is someone who's effective at translating the findings based in data to ‘hockey people.’ And when we talked to Alex, she talked a ton about communication. Talk about the importance of communication for people on your team, because you're doing the work, but then you have to have it help the people who need it.
I think one of the biggest things we've talked about, especially this year, is like when we're looking at game to game data. Let's say you see some expected goals numbers or things like that, especially when we're talking to our different staffs, including the coaching staff, (we're considering) what are they actually supposed to take away from (that data), and what are they actually supposed to do with it? So that's where there's been a lot of back and forth, of sometimes less is almost more when it comes to sharing data, because if we share a number with them and there's no immediate takeaway or nothing that they're supposed to actually change, then maybe it's not worth sharing that moment, and maybe it's something that we track over a season, identify broader trends and share some insights there. So we've, I think, tried to be pretty deliberate about not just generating and sharing every number all the time, because then you get overwhelmed and you're not really sure what to do with it, but just focusing on what's actually actionable and to understand that too.
How important have you learned it to be to have boots on the ground, to have relationships with these people that are basically your partners in your work, so that you have trust with them and can understand how they want things communicated and what is important for them to know?
Yeah, I think I've learned the most in that perspective from our amateur staff. I'll say, the draft is one of my favorite things to work on every year. And I think being in meetings with them virtually every week, and then twice a season, all of us getting together, you really understand again, their lives are just driving and flying everywhere, all over the world to try and see these prospects. And it's a good reminder to me that I better be up to speed on everything. I better be prepared, I better be knowledgeable, because I'm trying to provide a different perspective to someone who's actually, again, maybe driven all over the world to scout the player we're talking about, and has interviewed them and has such a wealth of knowledge about them that you have to be especially prepared and respectful to provide any type of counterpoint to that. And we're blessed in Seattle to have a ton of great amateur hockey around us, and in getting to go see some of those games, it's really valuable to see with your own eyes, 'ok, this is what this guy looked like as 17 year old, 18 year old prospect,' and then now, having been here for a few years, you can see how that actually ends up translating to the AHL and NHL. Marking that path and understanding what are traits that players can work on and get better at during and across those ages, I think has been really useful and really worth all the extra driving.
To put a fine point on that, you are out not necessarily scouting, like our amateur scouts do, but you are out there getting eyes on players and using that to inform your process and your team's process as well.
Yeah, I think it's been a good way to understand their perspective a lot better and then be able to address the concerns they might have when they see that I'm advocating for or pushing against a player that maybe they have a different opinion on. If I can actually say, 'I went to see this guy, and this is where I see where you're coming from,' I think that helps the conversation be more productive.
And you talked about how the scouts role and job is so important and such a big job that you worked to understand that. But How important do you think the relationships you've built with your team members, your scouting team members, is also them coming to learn and respect the value you bring to the table and your team?
I give them a ton of credit for always asking really interesting questions year round like, 'I think this guy is really good defensively, but the numbers seem lower on that. Why is that?' And just coming at it from a place of genuinely wanting to learn instead of being like, 'oh no, we disagree.' I think that's been so great to hear from them, and identify those interesting discussions earlier and more frequently throughout the year. (That) also helps us think more critically about our numbers, and especially when it comes to prospects, really getting to this notion of like, what are things that they can improve on, versus what are things that might limit their ceiling?
We are talking a lot about relationships and communication. You were promoted to a director this past spring. What do you continue to learn from a leadership perspective? You're already brilliant with the numbers, but what are you continuing to learn about making sure your team as a whole is as effective as it can be?
I think one of the biggest things I've learned from Alex Mandrycky and just try to apply every day is that one of the best things we can do is just be helpful to the people around us, and be present and available to answer questions and help streamline processes and do everything as efficiently as possible to get to better decisions and better answers more quickly. And then I think that's where if you're making people's lives easier, and then also you're providing alternative perspectives you can work better together, rather than seeming like you're coming in and just saying, 'hey, change this, change that,' but not actually improving anything.
You talked about watching a young player year over year and seeing maybe what can evolve what can't evolve with the work you do. And you do focus a lot on the amateur draft. Obviously, the payoff to your work isn't always immediate. What have been some moments now we're into NHL season number five and the years even before the team proper existed that you're starting to see based on the work you and your team have done?
Fortunately, I've stuck around long enough to actually see it, because the NHL draft, as a lot of people know, you might draft someone at 18, but then you're waiting for that moment when they're maybe 21-22 years old to actually even enter the NHL and be a consistent pro player. But, I feel incredibly proud to look back on the fact that, for example, the first five selections we've made in the amateur draft in 2021 - all of them have played at least one NHL game and registered a point. Some of them are very key contributors right now. So looking back on that, it really is a testament to everyone involved in getting those players to that point, starting with our amateur staff scouting during COVID, to our player development staff taking that handover and helping those players work on what's actually going to get them to the NHL, to our current coaching staff putting them in different roles to succeed. So it's just a total team effort. But it really is amazing to look back on that and have been around for that whole process.
We know this hockey has historically been male and Caucasian. As you find success over success and growth over growth, what do you think the value is of not just people who maybe aren't in the sport yet, but also people who are in the sport, seeing someone like you succeed at what you're doing?
Yeah, one of the things I like to think about moving forward is - and it doesn't have to be a huge deal to everyone every day - but I think just in talking about all these relationships and all the people that I work with, I like knowing that maybe I was the first woman or the first person of color that someone might have worked with. But I hope and I intend to not be the last. And hopefully they understand that people can look all different types of ways and work in this field, and then they get used to that notion. So, I think it can just be as simple as getting people used to it by being here and having been here for now six years.
